Posts by Make Lemonade

84

Want to know why people accept evolution ?

by snare&racket in

jw
friends

do you have questions about or want to understand evolution?

it is a difficult concept to communicate and so if it is not explained well , it is understandable that we would dismiss it.. i sincerely want to talk with people who want to learn more or see what all the fuss is about.

we are all learning and increasing our knowledge all the time and it is good to go over facts with critical eye.. evolution we can discuss, looking at the foundational facts and evidence, one at a time for you to go and check, agree or disagree with and return.. no pressure to accept it, you can decide for yourself, also no mocking etc of what you have to say.. .

Make Lemonade

Kaik: Visited Yosemite and have seen the Sequoias. WWW.nps.gov./yose/naturescience/sequoia-research.htm.

Dendrology, Ice cores, sediment layers. These are just words and concepts to me now. I would enjoy looking into this by reading more.

I can see in the Watchtower publications contradictions about dates in relationship to the flood and tower of Babel. Flood is 2370 BCE and Pyramid dates to 2500. That means that the flood did not destroy the Pyramid. It also means that Egyptian civilization existed before the flood. I have a file started to save these points. Lack of knowledge is a prison of sorts. When you see inconsistencies in teachings of the Wt. you want to know more.

You said "we can reassemble by the tree ring the years and climate going way back millions of years". That is something that I want to "sink my teeth into". What would you recomend as a good book on this subject?

I am supposed to be sleeping now. Woke up and decided to see if anyone had more to say. Glad I checked and found your comment. Thanks.

I will be back in about 16 hours or so. Going back to bed to catch a little more sleep. Then off to work.

84

Want to know why people accept evolution ?

by snare&racket in

jw
friends

do you have questions about or want to understand evolution?

it is a difficult concept to communicate and so if it is not explained well , it is understandable that we would dismiss it.. i sincerely want to talk with people who want to learn more or see what all the fuss is about.

we are all learning and increasing our knowledge all the time and it is good to go over facts with critical eye.. evolution we can discuss, looking at the foundational facts and evidence, one at a time for you to go and check, agree or disagree with and return.. no pressure to accept it, you can decide for yourself, also no mocking etc of what you have to say.. .

Make Lemonade

Thanks, Snare & a Racket, Congratulations on your new job!

Kaik I just learned that "origin of life" and "evolution" are two different discussions. I am also seeing that my knowledge of evolution goes back to the "Did Man Get Here by Evolution or Creation" book. That puts me way behind in the current knowledge/thinking of science.

Also, between 1965 & 1987, I was taught (by the WT) and believed that each "creative day" was 7,000 years long. Now, in the March and January 2014 Awake magazines, I can see a recognizable pattern developing when the WT wants to change a teaching. When the WT changes a viewpoint (like the 7,000 year creative day) they never come out and say "we were wrong about this," they simply STOP talking about it, and slowly introduce changes, using vague desciptions (using "thousands of years" to allow people to think it could be 50 or 100,000 years) as if no one will notice.

In the Awake magazines, 'young earth creationists', who believe in 24 hour creative days, become an easy target for criticism by the Awake magazines. Most readers are unaware of the reality that JW's are a version of these 'young earth creationists' themselves. Instead of 24 hour creative days, they taught, and believed in, 7,000 year creative days. So, I am stuck needing information and facts that will allow me to have a conviction that the '7,000 year creative days' are either fact or fiction.

I am interested in gardening and birds, but I am reallly interested in proof that life is older than 30,000 years. I do appreciate the common conclusion that life is millions of years old, I just have a need for evidence. Evidence that will help me explain to myself, and others, how to have confidence in the length of time that life has existed on earth.

thanks for being patient with me

84

Want to know why people accept evolution ?

by snare&racket in

jw
friends

do you have questions about or want to understand evolution?

it is a difficult concept to communicate and so if it is not explained well , it is understandable that we would dismiss it.. i sincerely want to talk with people who want to learn more or see what all the fuss is about.

we are all learning and increasing our knowledge all the time and it is good to go over facts with critical eye.. evolution we can discuss, looking at the foundational facts and evidence, one at a time for you to go and check, agree or disagree with and return.. no pressure to accept it, you can decide for yourself, also no mocking etc of what you have to say.. .

Make Lemonade

Now you all have provided some great information. Although I would not introduce Lewis Black to some of the faithful I know. LOL. He is just brutal. I did like the part about reaching in his pocket and pulling out a fossil. Very funny and thought provoking.

The video about evolution and defining the argument is excellent. I will be absorbing that information for some time to come.

Cofty somewhere gave a link about the reliability of dating (not men and women). That was more my speed. It also came from a "believer". Accepting that life is older than 30,000 to 50,000 years is a real obstacle in my mind.

I believe this statement: "If you ask a question you can appear to be a fool for 5 miniutes, If you never ask a question you can be a fool for life".

I will trade being a fool for a brief period if I can avoid being a fool for life.

Great information. Thanks

Can someone recomend a book on evolution, for a man who did not attend college. Has only basic math skills. I tried to read a book that used math formulas that completely lost me. Does not mean I did not get out of it what I wanted. Just have to say that the math was way over my head.

103

Why do I bother to wake up in the morning?

by punkofnice in

jw
friends

i'm not suicidal just fed up.. i did think of suicide (briefly), but as there is no painless way and it's not something i would willingly do just in case things would have been better the day after.

i do have a slight grain of hope.. money problems.....problems at home (that's another matter with a son up court for something he is adamant he didn't do.

first offence but the pigs police and the cps have got charges made.

Make Lemonade

I for one would miss you. Please stick around. You are a resource of information to me. I am not an atheist, but that does not cause me to dislike you. Just the opposite my friend. I Love honesty, integrity, people who are true to themselves. You fit those quailities.

Where I live it is easy for me to go for a walk and enjoy the beauty around me. With an hour of driving I can be refreshed by the ocean's beauty. I started getting into "birding". I have interest in gardening. Now I am focused on my business with the goal of retirement. Telling our story so others can benefit. Finding out about subjects I know nothing about (evolution).

You have a girl friend (awesome!). You are younger than me. There is so much to do.

84

Want to know why people accept evolution ?

by snare&racket in

jw
friends

do you have questions about or want to understand evolution?

it is a difficult concept to communicate and so if it is not explained well , it is understandable that we would dismiss it.. i sincerely want to talk with people who want to learn more or see what all the fuss is about.

we are all learning and increasing our knowledge all the time and it is good to go over facts with critical eye.. evolution we can discuss, looking at the foundational facts and evidence, one at a time for you to go and check, agree or disagree with and return.. no pressure to accept it, you can decide for yourself, also no mocking etc of what you have to say.. .

Make Lemonade

Snareandracket: O.K. I accept your invitation. This is to aid in understanding "how to reason" with Jehovah's Witnesses. Have to warn you that people say I think differently. I have been laughed at regarding my conclusions, but usually I can laugh with them. Just had that happen at a witnesses stand not to long ago.

I would first suggest you consider the legnth of time a person has been a witness. 1987 would be a dividing line. That was the last specific statement that the creative days are 7,000 year long. The January 2014 Awake article on creation is vague on the length of the creative days (Alan F. critique 1/2014 Awake).

Younger witnesses are given the "intellectual freedom" to imagine the creative days as thousands of years long. They can imagine enough time for life on the planet to have been brought about by God thru his Holy Spirit. "All things are possible with God"

Older witnesses, pre 1987, are having to conform there thoughts to a specific length of time. That is 50,000 years. However the last 1,000 years are for Christ's reign so the window is reduced to 49,000.

So in my opinion an important part of discussing, evolution versus Watchtower teachings, is the matter of how old is life on earth? When a witness is faced with contradictions, the fall back position is, "But let God be found true, though every man be found a liar" Rom. 3:4. So your approach to ask those willing to discuss is right on target. Your audience needs to be open to the discussion first.

Next in my way of thinking is to view the origen of the universe. To this day you can find a similar divide among young and old witnesses. Steady State vs Big Bang. This is where I am laughed at by witnesses. When I state that I believe God used the big bang to create the universe it invokes out load laughter. I even believe I can use the Watchtower literature to prove that is the case. Even more laughter follows that statement. At least people are haveing a good time.

Anyway, back to your point of how to reason on science/evolution. Perhaps start the discussion not as evolution vs. the Bible. Rather the discussion would be: What does the Bible teach about the origen of life?

84

Want to know why people accept evolution ?

by snare&racket in

jw
friends

do you have questions about or want to understand evolution?

it is a difficult concept to communicate and so if it is not explained well , it is understandable that we would dismiss it.. i sincerely want to talk with people who want to learn more or see what all the fuss is about.

we are all learning and increasing our knowledge all the time and it is good to go over facts with critical eye.. evolution we can discuss, looking at the foundational facts and evidence, one at a time for you to go and check, agree or disagree with and return.. no pressure to accept it, you can decide for yourself, also no mocking etc of what you have to say.. .

Make Lemonade

Snareandracket: Thank you for starting this thread. My mind wants the answers to the questions this thread raises. For many years looking into this was not even a consideration. I just dismissed it in many ways. This process will be slow for me because of other competing subjects. Having a place to refer to often will be a benefit to me.

Now that I have "intellectual permission" to investigate, I want information like this. Will be focusing on this thread now that it is here.

Again, Thank you and the contributors for taking your valueable time to share what you already know. It is appreciated.

16

Reunion- Stepping Back to a Time Before All the JW Stuff Started

by OnTheWayOut in

although i was exposed to the jw's as a child as the only religion i knew, i was not a jw until i got out of the navy as a conscientious objector.

so i was typical "worldly" when i hit 18 out of high school and i got to see the world before personal catastrophy involving heavy drinking made me turn to the lies that i thought were "the truth.

" so just over 30 years ago, i got the special privilege of serving as the original crew of a brand new ship with a crew slightly over 200. i served 5 years on the "uss worldly" and then left to become a jw.. when you are the first crew, you learn together how to use that ship, how to run things smoothly.

Make Lemonade

I see the value of what you did. From the comments others did to. This is what I appreciate about this site. People share what helps them and what does not. Then others reading the comments can pick out what would be best for them. Thanks for this experience and the overall contributions you have made.

11

Seriously? 2,000 years of continuously diverging opinion about "interpretation" isn't enough time to sort it out?

by suavojr in

jw
friends

the current jw's who are inside (the conscience class) will have to endure another year of jw's pretending to please jesus with their bad imitation of the lords supper.

2000 years of people who could never be sure they had "the truth.

" what are the chances it'll come out in the next 2000?.

Make Lemonade

Two months ago I visited my parents. Also my two sisters and brother in law. Our family was close, but the fact that I was a JW and they were not put a strain in our relationship. My Mom and one sister are going to church. The rest are not interested in church and perhaps lean toward being agnostic. Well I made a joke during dinner. I found a church that I want to join: It is the church of "I DO NOT KNOW AND WANT TO FIND OUT". The agnostics laughed out loud, and the rest gave an aknowledging smile.

At this point I can see so much to read and explore. That is an adventure to me. I cannot say where that adventure will leed me, but I sure want to enjoy it.

Your statements about evolution theory intrigues me. I am lacking the knowledge to engage in those questions. Looking forward to exploring though.

17

A preist , Pastor , or minister of religion that uses the Bible or an i-pad , who in your eyes would command your respect .

by smiddy in

jw
friends

i ask this because of an experience over the weekend when two witnesses came to my door , and he tried to use his i-pad to witness to me, which i wasnt intersted in.. my theory is this is going to backfire on them .

the majority of people in christendom , whether they practice it or not have a reverence , if not a deep respect for the written word , the bible , as a holy book.

a sacred book.. i dont beleive a householder who is a christian is going to be impressed by someone who quotes scriptures from an i-pad.. religous books have been considered sacred for centuries , their is an awe about them .

Make Lemonade

This has to be a gamble for the Wt.. The more people learn to find information on the internet, the more chance people will find questions that the WT. cannot answer.

Personally, I like the option of reading the Bible online and in a book form. I like reading JW.net

18

2 J dubs at my door this morning .

by smiddy in

jw
friends

my wife and i are presently interstate house sitting for a freind , and this morning 2 jw`s called unexpectedly of course .

after their introducing themselves.

they offered the invitation to the memmorial which i rejected , then let him present his spiel , nothing has changed by the way .. i had them their for about an hour , i`m on holidays nothing better to do this morning except keep them away from other doors .and of course they were prepared to stay.

Make Lemonade

Smiddy: I will be watching for your new thread.